Turns Out Wanting to Protect Your Customers Gets You V&.

Discussion in 'News' started by Shinmera, Oct 2, 2013.

  1. Shinmera

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    九尾の狐

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    http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/10/lavabit_unsealed

    The really interesting bit comes from extrapolating this though. Since this case makes the spying and secret government demands fact, it isn't hard to imagine that the same thing is going on with many other companies and we just don't know about it for sure.

    Or in other words: If you want to be safe, getting your own privately hosted server for your documents seems like the only sure fire way to go.
     
  2. Twaek

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    The only two people not safe here are Snowden and Levison. People seem to have the misconception that the government gives half a shit about anything you do. If you want to be safe, don't commit death-penalty felony treason and don't piss away your ten year old company to keep secrets for the guy who leaked secrets.
     
  3. Shinmera

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    The problem here is that the government clearly shows that it is ready to take certain actions to get what it wants. These actions could very well be used to do other things than simply going after Snowden as it might be in this case. This tendency is a very alarming one and raises some serious questions about privacy.

    I for one am glad that I can at least trust some people to provide what they advertise. Or do you actually encourage companies to fuck you over behind their back?
     
  4. SuicideKing

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    Agreed.
     
  5. Twaek

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    Yes, what the government wants. The thing is, so many people live in a egocentric world where the government's sole purpose is to track each and every Facebook post they make.
    Companies should do what they advertise, but not when they are committing criminal contempt. The only person I want fucked is Snowden. Behind bars. On death row. For treason.
     
  6. Likeicare

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    @Popcorn was it you that was bragging about Lavabit?
     
  7. Robert Paulson

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    Only two people are Snowden, Levison and everyone else who ever used Lavabit.

    The problem isn't (so much) that the FBI wanted everything possible they needed to fuck Snowden. The problem is, what they asked for were keys that would give them access to ALL USERS AND ALL ACCOUNTS ON THE SITE, while pretending they weren't interested in anyone but Snowden. The problem is, it would have exposed EVERYONE ELSE USING THE SITE. Arguably, Levison could have avoided this if he complied with the initial request- but the subsequent request was a huge overreach by the FBI, and the judge was clueless enough not to recognize that.
     
  8. Twaek

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    That is true, but I don't think they were pretending that they weren't interested in anyone but Snowden. Why would the government, or anyone for that matter, care about joe.blow@lavabit.com?
     
  9. Popcorn

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    This is exactly why. Government wanted them to roll over and give them all the info they wanted and Lavabit didn't.

    Gov: "Hey, we are the government, give us SSL keys so we can spy on your users"
    Lavabit: "No, fuck off."
    Gov: "Do it or we'll rape you."
    Lavabit: "Oh, well, in that case, fuck off."
     
  10. Aroukar

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    When will the butthurt end?
     
  11. Shinmera

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    Why would the government not just publicly demand of Lavabit to give out all information about Snowden with the charges they have for him? Instead they demanded to have full access to everything while also requiring Lavabit to not mention this to anyone ever.

    Doesn't that sound suspicious to you?
    Because it sounds suspicious as all fucking hell to me.

    There is absolutely no reason for them to have access to all users, even less so without anyone knowing about it, except to be able to spy on all of them. If this was only about Snowden, they would've asked only about Snowden. They did not, so it is not.

    That is seriously no argument to refute any of this or to make this any less dangerous than it is. Do you want to give me access to your bank account? I don't need your money right now, I promise I got plenty myself. So why wouldn't you?

    If they had a freaking court order for Lavabit to give out the information only about Snowden, then that would be fine. That is not what they did and that is not what this is about. See above reasoning.
     
  12. Shinmera

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    The article got updated and there's now this gem:
    Oh man this guy...
     
  13. 1H4T3NUMB3R5

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    ah, the good ole government, a tick, a leech, a parasite, to put it kindly. Had this somehow occurred a hundred odd years ago, to be generous, Obama black or not would be hanging from a tree with the rest of congress for having the gall to say "yes we are spying on you, no we don't give a shit if you don't like it". the only ones committing a felony here is the us government. Like an old phoenix this thing is warn out, corrupted and long past its expiration date, its time it collapses into ash so that it may be renewed, if only to grow old and crumble once more, as it always will.
     
  14. Twaek

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    I'm gonna guess because Snowden would stop using that e-mail. Isn't the point of wiretapping to get access to information that will be passed, not already has been passed?

    It is suspicious, but I give my government the benefit of the doubt. I figure they earned it.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but don't they need the SSL key to decrypt anyone's stuff? It would give them access to everyone's, but they only want someone's.

    Money and information are different, at least for the government. The government isn't Facebook. Nobody is going to buy information from them and they are not going to sell it to anyone.

    I agree, they could have played this better. They probably could have had Lavabit track every one of Snowden's actions and avoided this.
     
  15. Shinmera

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    Isn't the point of a court order in process to get information that's currently available, not some that /will/ be available? Because I'm pretty sure courts don't do rulings for things yet to happen.

    Why?

    Read the article again (it has been updated now), Lavabit even offered to install a system to only give them access to Snowden's stuff, but they refused it (with a bullshit excuse imo).

    I am seriously doubting this. Buying information from other governments about people of interest does not at all seem very outlandish to me.
     
  16. Baya Rae 4900

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    Yeah, they don't give a shit. That's why they've been spying on literally everyone by gaining digital information indiscriminately.
     
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  17. minty

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    AAAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
    you know there's congressmen who pass laws without reading what they put their signature on, right? you know they didn't even read the patriot act before they signed it into law, right?
    do you really think anybody who doesn't read what they're signing has your best interest at heart?
     
  18. Twaek

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    Man, all this splitting of quotes is hard stuff. :confused:
    Because in about four hours, I'm going to drive my EPA approved car down the Department of Transportation maintained roads to my Department of Education funded college.

    I'm guessing they want to keep tabs on Snowden and people Snowden talks to. I don't understand why and I see how it's suspicious, but, like Trump said, the system filters out the 400,000 other metadata thingies and just gets what they need. “No one looks at that, no one stores it, no one has access to it.”

    Do you have any evidence that the United States has sold information to another country?

    And since they started doing that, how much more dangerous has torrenting and piracy gotten? You're still as safe as you ever were.


    Did you know that there are congressmen who do read what they sign? I believe most politicians do care about the people, because politics is a pretty shitty job. You have to already be rich to get in, so money doesn't matter, you have to spend countless hours bullshitting, and everybody fucking hates you no matter what you do. Don't get me wrong, every bill should be read and politicians who don't take their jobs seriously are bad people, but an organization is more than the worst member. Or are you saying that all of EDF is Onideus?
     
  19. Robert Paulson

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    I can think of a few reasons, however I am not at liberty to discuss them.

    Yes.
     
  20. Popcorn

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    It would have been better if he used webdings font, too.
     
  21. Shinmera

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    Ok? How exactly does that make spying on people for no (good) reason any less likely or any more alright? Just because they do something ok doesn't mean it excuses other shitty things.

    Then why do they want it in the first place? This makes no sense. And whatever Trump says is almost worthless because the public won't have any guarantee that that's really what they were going to do. All we know is that they would've gotten all the data, while only really needing a part of it.

    No, and obviously I don't because that'd be a scandal if it got public. I'm asking you if you can see good reasons as to why they would not want to do it. If there's no reason for them to not do it, then it's not stupid to assume that they are doing it.
     
  22. minty

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    yes, but do they comprehend and make sense of the thousand page bills that they get two days before they sign them?
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-5110850-503544/-will-congress-read-bills-before-voting-/


    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0609/24348.html

    if these people gave a legitimate fuck about what they were doing, the read the bill act would not have been written in 2006, nor brought up by sen paul in 2012... yes, that's an act that requires the lawmakers to READ THE LAWS before they pass them

    onideus provides balance to the edf ecosystem of circlejerkery by giving the people who read his posts someone to be pissed off at
     
  23. Twaek

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    You asked why I gave them the benefit of the doubt. It's because they keep me safe, make sure my food doesn't have any cockroaches or chunks of immigrants in it, make sure the roads work and the trains run on time. Which is a pain in the ass, too, because that damn train makes me late for class.

    They would have gotten the data they needed, nothing more, nothing less. And why would Trump be any more of a liar than any other man? If he says they are going to do it this way, I don't have a reason to see why they wouldn't do it that way.

    Maybe if it happened, it would have been revealed in the whole Wikileaks thing or this Snowden stuff? And maybe they wouldn't do it because nobody is buying? If China wants to get info on somebody, they have a good enough reason for China to give a damn about this person, which means that it's probably a criminal issue. And if allies want help on catching a criminal, allies tend to help them for free, right? That's why all those countries refused to house Snowden, since we want his head, correct?

    Uh, if they didn't give a fuck, wouldn't the bill have never been brought up and they would just keep fucking around?



    And Congressman Todd Akin provided the same for the House.
     
  24. Baya Rae 4900

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    They started "that" as soon as 9/11 happened. Since then they've shut down scores of P2P programs and networks as well as jailed a countless amount of P2P users, administrators and developers. Yeah, we're certainly as safe as we ever were.
     
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  25. Shinmera

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    And I'm saying that that's a stupid thing to do. Why would you want to wilfully ignore an issue instead of demanding investigation and transparency? That's just asking for trouble.

    No, the point is that they would've gotten more than the data they needed. Getting the SSL keys would've meant having access to all further information on all customers. There is zero reason for them to have this level of access.
    I'm not accusing Trump of being a liar. I'm saying that someone has to look at that data at some point and that someone could have malicious/other intent.

    There's "enemies of the state" without them necessarily being criminals according to law. It seems entirely plausible for the state to want to get info on them without it being noticed by the public because that'd cause suspicion.

    I'm not sure why you're still going on about Snowden. The issue here is that the US government is apparently willing to spy on people and is forcing companies into giving out data that the government should not have access to. Snowden could very well just be a cover here to get access to more information than they really need. And as I said before, the fact alone that this happened makes it highly likely that other companies before Lavabit have been secretly ordered to give access to unknowing users and even users that are not under legal suspicion.

    I know a lot of this sounds a bit tin-foil-hat-y, but you cannot deny that this and recent NSA trends and leaks are very, very alarming news and something that should not just be ignored. I want to trust the governments, but when things like this occur I just cannot help but wonder what else could be happening under the covers that we just don't know about.
     
  26. minty

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    did you even read the link? it was written in '06, when it quickly was shelved aside until 2012, and even then...
    lolfuckers.
     
  27. Twaek

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    I'm not asking about programs or networks. Have you, The Member Formerly Known As Baya Rae 4900, been prosecuted of a cyber crime due to "that"?
    What am I going to do with the transparency? How many people who complain about the guberment being secretive watch CSPAN, read publically available documents, or visit government websites? I am not going to expect, much less demand, a phantom right that I will never exercise.

    They didn't ask for the keys until after the company jerked them around. And I'm sure somebody so well verse in databases understands that only seeing what you want is about as hard as a SELECT command. Nobody has to see that Jane Doe e-mail'd John Doe, because the machine filters out that crap.

    Why would a government care about somebody unless they are harming them?

    Because Snowden is still an issue here. I understand that what the government is doing is on the darker half of the gray area, but I also understand that it's for a good reason. If it means capturing a felon, I will gladly let the government have the ability to file court orders that will allow them access to a tenth of the data that Google, Facebook, Verizon, or Cox get on me daily, assuming the company doesn't refuse.

    While it does sound like you lined your fez with some tin, I get why you are worried. I would be lying if I said that I haven't been a little more careful since the NSA thing, but I still trust the USA.
    Of course I read the link. Do I look like Congress? :rolleyes:
     
  28. minty

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    ...yes, you do. because you think they have the peoples' best interest at heart like they think they do
     
  29. Twaek

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    Which would mean that you think that they do give a fuck, but are just incompetent.
     
  30. minty

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    i think a small number of them give an actual fuck and the rest only give a fuck in the sense that they want to be voted back in next term, meaning they give very minimal fucks
    i don't think any of them WANT to be responsible for crashing the country, but like the smear campaigns against the other party they used to get into office (my opponent wants to shit on your wife's chest and kill your children... i don't... vote for me) they seem to not mind too much so long as they can blame the other side
    and yes, i do think they're mostly incompetent