The Prophet/Antichrist Paradox and the Gamble between Good and Evi

Discussion in 'Religion & Politics' started by Dr. Rice, Jan 4, 2012.

  1. Dr. Rice

    Dr. Rice
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    I would like to point out that while I am a Hermeticist, which involves a bunch of religious beliefs that you plebeians wouldn’t understand. However, for the stake of this thread I will be using Christian theological concepts to streamline my argument, despite this argument is Christian based, aspects of it is still relevant in Hermetic thought (which is the true philosophy of the universe).

    While there are numerous cases of Good and Evil fighting one another in religious texts, the first that is interesting is the Book of Job. What makes this story different is that God (the force of good) and Satan (the force of evil) gamble on the nature of Job. While I can go the details of the story, but to paraphrase the content, Satan bets God that Job only worships God because Job is enjoying the high life. God disagrees and punishes Job to prove a point, Job continues to pray and offer worship to God despite his suffering in which he loses everything and gets a painful skin condition. God wins this bet (despite neither of them offered a prize, so basically they were betting on bragging rights) and then gives Job everything back and then more.

    This gamble seems to happen again, not as obvious, but none the less with the story of Jesus. Before Jesus becomes a hot shot, Satan tempts Jesus to the side of evil. Jesus while interested in Satan’s perspective and argument, that Jesus should use his power for materialistic purposes to create a society that falls in line with his ideology, in essence to force his belief instead of being a role model. Jesus ultimately turns it down to become the force that history remembers him as.

    These two stories provide an interesting theme on the nature of agents of God, but before we discuss these themes, let me put some background first into your brains.

    God is the creator everything. Since He existed before he created the universe, you would argue that God is the only thing that is real and His creation is unreal. Now God only created good in the beginning. At the time of the story of Adam and Eve, there are two conflicting viewpoints about timing. Mainstream Christian thought is that the Fall of Satan happens before Adam and Eve. Gnostic Christian thought is the Fall of Satan happens after Adam and Eve. While the Gnostic thought is more likely to be the beliefs of the early Christians (as anyone who believes that any form of modern Christianity is what the ancients believed in after 1000 years of Catholic manipulation and rewriting is an idiot). I am going to go with Mainstream Christian thought because to be honest, either side doesn’t really matter for my thesis statement.

    Now somewhere between creation and the Fall of Satan, God creates evil. I don’t buy idea of Satan creating evil, as Angels don’t have freewill. Good cannot exist without evil, as otherwise it really isn’t good. So when God created good, he also at the same time created evil. Some people might argue that he didn’t do that consciously, but I’ll ignore them for their stupid and heretic thoughts that God unintentionally did anything, as that goes against the thought of God being all knowing and all powerful, which is traditional Christian dogma.

    Based on the overall messages of important prophet’s in the Judeo-Christian faith, the point of creation is to test God’s creations if they will be good or evil. So Satan isn’t the creator of evil, just the enforcer, since God created evil when he created good. Good and evil are forces that God controls and allows. Satan is merely a figurehead for the forces of evil (I have my own thoughts about the nature of Satan, but they don’t belong here). So Satan is a lot like Reaver in the Fable 3. When Satan tempted Adam and Eve with the apple, God didn’t go “fuck this, I’m starting over.” He instead decided to do it live and allow the fall to happen. This suggests He knew this was going to happen all along.

    So despite God is in control of evil, Satan is the straight man for evil. In the process of writing this, I’ve realized how dumb this Christian mythology sounds out loud, at least the Muslim version makes a lot more sense logically. Anyway, back to Jesus and Job. Good and evil seem to be competing for the same people, which makes sense, but Jesus and Job aren’t normal people in Christianity, they are special.

    Let us not look at the “history” that is described in the holy texts, but understand the invisible histories not recorded. As a Hermeticist, I believe that God or The All, plays a part in everything, just varying degrees of caring. Christians believe this on varying degrees. Certain individuals God cares about more than other subjects. He blesses these individuals with abilities that are beyond what is considered the normal abilities of humans. In the eternal struggle between good and evil, evil will tempt these individuals with the powers of evil. I feel that this goes both ways. Satan also blesses certain individuals with abilities beyond what is considered beyond the normal abilities of humans. Not to be outdone, God also tempts these individuals with the powers of good.

    While I can use numerous figures in history to illustrate my point, I will use an easy one: Hitler. You might be thinking, “how is Hitler a force of good and evil? Clearly Hitler is a force of Evil/Good (depending on your views).” I believe any sensible person here, when they examine the evidence, find something that we would consider beyond human has influenced the rise of Hitler. What these influencing forces were is up for debate, but let us at least consider one faction was the side of good (God) and the other side as evil (Satan).

    While we can consider the desire for war and systematic extermination of large sections of humanity as something evil (or good, as what do we really know in the grand scheme of things). In my opinion, I consider this evil and will argue it as being such. God would notice that such a powerful figure was emerging in the universe and would have done a considerable amount of scheming to ruin Satan’s plan. God would have realized that, for better or worse, that such a figure would be inspirational to future generations of man (both as a positive and negative role model) and imbued him with qualities that would be recognized as such. While Hitler was a genocidal megalomaniac with a drug addiction to hardcore drugs, he passionately believed in women’s rights, animal rights, organic foods and reigning in the food industry, the criminalization of tobacco, the evils of unrestrained corporations and capitalism, the banning of sodas and the promotion of fruit juices, the destruction of social classes, an end to poverty, and many more things. When we look at the actual character of what Hitler was, we find a very mixed person. To define him as simply evil is a statement of an ignorant and uneducated person.

    It is my belief that God and Satan have numerous individuals who they prepare to act as their agents. Why would such powerful beings like God and Satan need extras? Well shit happens and people die for stupid reasons, sometimes not of their own doing. I call this the Prophet or Antichrist Archetype. While not all individuals are important or powerful enough to be considered Prophets or Antichrist, I classify them under this concept as they are still agents of these beings/forces. I would also state that these individuals do not have to individuals who are of a religious nature, as good and evil is not merely confined to such roles.

    In conclusion, the individuals of Prophet/Antichrist archetypes, much like all of us, struggle with the temptations of good and evil on a daily basis. However, their temptations have much greater consequences.
     
  2. Beefcake

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    The Book of Job pretty much says that god is an asshole.
     
  3. Zaichata

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    I honestly tried to read this but the combination of the elements 'boring' and 'red font' really killed me halfway.
     
  4. Thayora

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    What the book of Job did was establish that God is indeed a gambler. The Catholic church is constantly trying to establish an "all good" God. Actually, the Bible seems to have established that Satan is more powerful than God.
     
  5. MrGask

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    It was the "stuff I already know/badly written/pointless" trifecta that got me.
     
  6. Baya Rae 4900

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    There is no such thing as good and evil. If humans disappeared tomorrow, so would the concepts of good and evil.
     
  7. Dr. Rice

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    Implying that humans are the only sentient species in existence.
     
  8. Zaichata

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    Not necessarily. I've seen some evil ponies in my time as a National Pony Ranger.

    I... I... I don't want to talk about it any further.

    *stutters, cries and runs away in drama*
     
  9. Dr. Rice

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    My experiments with LSD, not only suggest that LSD is a karma inducing drug, but that karma is a quantifiable phenomena. Now morality is only something a sentient mind can understand. However, if morality manifests in the world around us, then something about the nature of existence is sentient. This sentience would be called God.
     
  10. Zaichata

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  11. Dr. Rice

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    A sentience that pervades (at the very least) Earth would be God or many other things. All of them we would describe as angelic or godlike.
     
  12. MrGask

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    My experiments with LSD (and other hallucinatory drugs) suggest that it is a mind altering substance that rewires neural pathways, causing people to think that they are experiencing enlightenment, when they are really just tripping balls.
     
  13. Dr. Rice

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    Yes I know it permanently alters the brain, but I'm not talking about things you experience when you are high, I am talking about events that happen to you while you are sober.
     
  14. Khanzer

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    To be fair we mostly care about Jesus story than the old testament. Also the moral of Job's story is not to said thanks when shit happen to you, get mad for God sake.
     
  15. MrGask

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    You do realize that permanent alteration means it effects how you perceive things even while sober, right?
     
  16. Dr. Rice

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    Yes, however a collective experience that is perceived by multiple individuals is not a hallucination.
     
  17. MrGask

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    You're right, then it is called mass hysteria.
     
  18. Seku

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    I thought the Gods of the Old and New Testament were different. I heard that somewhere.

    I only read the Bible for entertainment purposes, I don't analyze its underlying concepts.
     
  19. Helix

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    I'm really trying, Ricie. Might I suggest a less retina-burning font?
     
  20. Dr. Rice

    Dr. Rice
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    Fixed
     
  21. Seku

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    More like fixed
     
  22. Seku

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    HOLY CRAP, IT WORKED!

    EDIT: Is it looking like Arial for you guys, or did I actually just succeed in posting in Helvetica on this forum?
     
  23. Helix

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    I don't necessarily agree with you that god created good and evil, but I don't think that it is a concept created by man either. If you're talking Christianity, then the original sin was disobedience. God said that there was one tree that they couldn't eat from (the tree if knowledge), and they envied it, because they wanted to be like god, immortal and all-knowing. I guess what I'm getting at is that I believed that god created everything neutral, and then humans twisted it in a way to fulfill their own wants and desires. Think about it, you can take any action out of context, and it can be used for either good or evil. The most obvious example would be killing. You can kill to defend yourself, protect someone or something, or kill out of hatred, envy, or greed. Sex is another example of this. It can be a beautiful thing between two people, born of love and care for one another, or a violent, empty, lustful thing (I.E. Rape). God didn't make his creations with that sort of spin on them to begin with.
     
  24. Solution

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    Ok, smart guy explain child rape, Ron Paul and niggers.
     
  25. Helix

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    hey now, everybody knows that the church teaches that child rape is AWWRIIIGHT
     
  26. Baya Rae 4900

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    The odds of other sentient life is so minuscule as to warrant a response in the form of a burst of laughter from myself.
     
  27. MrGask

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    I think they were referring to children rapist, not children rapees. Good use of meme though.

    In an infinite universe (which ours is insofar as we know), the odds against it are zero.
     
  28. Dr. Rice

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    Do you seriously believe there is no life besides our small planet in the universe?

    [​IMG]
     
  29. Baya Rae 4900

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    Very, very specific circumstances created life on this planet. Then very, very specific circumstances created sentient life. So yeah, I don't believe it.
     
  30. Beefcake

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

    I suggest you actually do some research into the matter Snorlax. The notion that we are somehow a special occurrence in a universe as vast as ours is rather egocentric.