*** Official Thread of US Politics ***

Discussion in 'Religion & Politics' started by Boudica, Aug 4, 2015.

  1. uberfukken

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    obsolete mule

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    It's 18 trillion on top of, not instead of.
     
  2. minty

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    toymaker

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    how? i only started looking into it today and i can't honestly say for 100% how it would be enacted since i'm not a bureaucrat, but it seems to be based on expanding medicare to cover the entire country and making it nationalized, so that 5 trillion that would still be spent would still be included in that number, being 1/3 of health care costs. the other two thirds of it would be funded by an increase in taxes but it would be in tandem with an overall lowering in general of how much is spent on health care.
     
  3. uberfukken

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    obsolete mule

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    You defined the cost of medicare for people ages 65 and up as it currentlly stands. If you extend that to all Americans, the original cost does not disappear.

    "in short, every person would kick in two more dollars for every 1 dollar they're currently paying on medicare"

    I was paying $25 a week on Medicare/SSA tax, you're suggesting I pay $75. That's $300 a month. I can find private health insurance for less than that and provides much better benefits.
     
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  4. uberfukken

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    obsolete mule

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    Also I should add as someone whose worked in the Medicare industry, the service Medicare patients receive is significantly worse than those with private insurance. Medicare has this neat trick where they pay doctors about 20% of the actual bill (Meaning if you are a doctor and bill Medicare for a $20,000 surgery, you'd be lucky to see them pay more than $5000) and they get away with this because of contract obligations doctors have to sign in order to take Medicare patients.

    Private insurance pays better, so you get better doctors. If you extend Medicare to all citizens, every hospital in the country would look like a county clinic. Overworked doctors on outdated equipment and nurses who give zero fucks because they're over crowded and under funded.
     
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  5. minty

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    toymaker

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    i honestly got nothin' on this because i haven't had to shop for my own health insurance so i have no experience in it...
    don't most insurances only pay a portion, though? shit, even when i was active duty and had to go to the hospital they didn't pay the full bill.

    private insurance seems to be part of the cause for why the health care costs are as fuckhuge as they are to begin with... even my econ teacher thinks the disconnect between doctor and patient and the "just sign this, your insurance will cover it" mentality is why we pay so much.
    [​IMG]
    compared to medicare at the moment, maybe. but i don't think that private insurance actually makes too much of a difference otherwise... here's how the us ranks against other countries in health care categories and prices
    [​IMG]
    obviously we do better at some things and worse in others. i think whatever the hell the uk is doing is what we need to be doing.
     
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  6. uberfukken

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    obsolete mule

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    What those charts never show is the role population size plays on overall healthcare We're dealing with 350 million people, any country in the top 20 of WHO's health care grade has a small fraction of that. With increased size comes increased management, and that comes with a heavy price. Compared to countries with similar populations to us (India, Brazil, Indonesia) our healthcare is incredible.

    don't most insurances only pay a portion, though? shit, even when i was active duty and had to go to the hospital they didn't pay the full bill.

    Nobody pays the full bill unless they're going out of pocket. Private insurance pays hospitals and doctors about double what Medicare pays. When you're dealing with surgeries that typically run in the $8-12 thousand ballpark, that's a big difference. The best doctors simply do not take Medicare because they feel it's a waste of their time. A specialist usually charges $200 for a consultation - they have a choice to take Medicare patients and get an endless stream of patients who they get $50 a pop for, or private insurance only, deal with less patients and get $120 a pop. Most prefer the latter because they get the same amount of money for less work. The doctors taking medicare patients often do so out of necessity because they are not established.

    Another little talked about aspect of Medicare is that because of Part C, it's mostly commercialized now. Most Medicare patients have an additional private insurance that adds to their medicare benefits because without it they're still responsible for a 20% co-insurance on everything (unless they're poor and are dual-eligible with Medicaid, in which case Medicaid picks up the 20%)
     
  7. uberfukken

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    obsolete mule

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    It should also be noted that Medicare pays nothing towards prescription drugs. Medicare patients have to purchase Part D coverage, which often runs about $100 a month and comes with a high deductible, and something called the "Donut Hole" - after you've reached a certain amount of expenditures for the year (usually around $3000) the insurance stops covering you. It will start covering you again after you've reached the catastrophic phase, which is around $9000.

    This means if you are a Medicare patient with Part D and get cancer, you'll still be paying about $5000 for the prescription drugs on top of your $100 monthly premium.
     
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  8. minty

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    toymaker

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    they're not comparing india, brazil, and indonesia to us for a reason. brazil, indonesia, and india are all classified by the UN as developing countries. developing countries being code for 'poor as all fuck.' it's fair to compare us to other first world countries because the us is a first world country. i think population is taken into account, that's why they use statistical percentages. what percentage of people died per year of what illness in such n such location vs what percentage of people died of the same illness in another location is fairly unbiased.
    that cost under the numbers in the graph up there is the cost per individual per year for health care.

    that increase in cost is not solely an increase in quality
    in short, those robots that are replacing burger flippers could be replacing, right now, people who are sitting in offices fucking up other peoples' prescriptions, which is far more important than fucking up and adding cheese to a burger for someone who didn't ask for it
    the system is bloated and inefficient. a tab of tylenol shouldn't cost near 40$ just because the room you take it in a different setting.
    on a sidenote, maybe with our higher infant mortality rating we can get rid of some people and the cost'll go down
    [​IMG]
     
  9. uberfukken

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    obsolete mule

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    Yes the system is bloated and inefficient but a lot of that has to do with how big a role government plays and how inefficient they are. Hospitals have to charge $40 a tab for Tylenol because Medicare would only pay them 2 cents if they billed for what it was actually worth. Hospitals are a business so they have to find a way to recoup their losses, and if that means upcharging their services by 400% to even out the playing field with Medicare ripping them off, that's what they have to do to pay their bills.

    "i think population is taken into account, that's why they use statistical percentages"

    It's not an accurate measure when you're comparing something that's 20x in size. It's a good foundation, but you cannot say with utmost accuracy that "Okay there was 1 car accident for every 200 citizens, so that means there would be 1000 car accidents for every 200,000 citizens". There's more variables involved, and with something as convoluted as healthcare those variables are almost impossible to measure.
     
  10. uberfukken

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    obsolete mule

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    Again, variables. To this chart I would ask to see how it correlates with drug use amongst people aged 20-30. Attributing it to how much money the government pumps into the program is misleading.
     
  11. minty

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    toymaker

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    i don't think that's it, maybe part of it, but the doctors who charge for mri's purely because they have a machine to and a 600$ difference in cost on average for administrative expenses can not purely be 'because da gubmint'
    according to the institute of medicine, there's well over 700 billion every year spent on medicine that is wasted money. some of it being unnecessary services (the doctor using the mri because he has a machine to do so), some of it is fraud, some of it is inefficiency... but the two largest numbers of that chunk is the unnecessary services and high administrative costs. since 1999, healthcare costs have increased by over 100%. the number of people using medicare has not increased in tandem with that amount of inflation
    yeh, it is still a good place to start, though...
    it is interesting that netherlands is higher up on the list than us with legalized drugs and a smaller dead baby list
    a quick glance at google gave me this
    [​IMG]
    it also doesn't take in factors like differences in diet, or physical activity of the population, how heavy their workloads are (found some research on that last week-ish... apparently people who work longer hours are quick to die off sooner than people who only work moderate hours)
    i think after i finish the rest of my class assignments this week i'll look into finding some more information on that... i'm bored enough to compile a list of food regulations, drug use, general health of the population, etc.
     
  12. minty

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    toymaker

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    lol white privilege extends to infant mortality rates
    [​IMG]
     
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  13. DNJACK

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    I love you Cricket!

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    Would it be amazing if states defined their own healthcare systems?
     
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  14. uberfukken

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    obsolete mule

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    but the two largest numbers of that chunk is the unnecessary services and high administrative costs.

    Unnecessary services are definitely bloated. I've dealt with a lot of claims that were denied for being "unnecessary" and having the physician appeal that verdict with clinical notes proving it was necessary. A lot of these claims are handled by people overseas and they have do everything completely 100% by the book - if it doesn't fit with guidelines, it's denied. As for administrative costs, well yeah, they have an important job. If I had cancer I'd be a bit concerned if I found out the office staff dealing with my chemotherapy was making $12 an hour and their only qualification is a GED.

    There are some doctors who do abuse the system and administer gauntlets of tests without any real reason, but it's not as common as those studies would suggest. They're putting themselves at risk against the attorney general.

    it is interesting that netherlands is higher up on the list than us with legalized drugs and a smaller dead baby list

    Legalized narcotics does not mean they have more drug use. In fact, the countries with the strictest laws tend to have the biggest addiction problems.
     
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  15. minty

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    toymaker

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    i wasn't implying that they had more drug use, i just said it was interesting, and it is. the mentality behind it when shit is banned and you do it anyway, you're instantly fighting 'the man' like how the second confederate flags started getting banned fuckloads of people started buying 'em...
    speaking of personal freedoms
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  16. uberfukken

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    obsolete mule

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    That's our prison industrial complex hard at work.
     
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  17. GloriousReader

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    #CouchCrew2k15

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    1442537523471.
     
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  18. Arcticphoenix95

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    Secretary of Fast Food and Sexual Assault

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    Once elected Emperor Trump will clone dinosaurs to patrol the border, devouring any beaner who attempts to cross.
     
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  19. Mortal Sword

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    Girlvinyl

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    I guarantee the difference here (as in most statistics where the US compares unfavorably to European nations, like this, violence rates, etc) is that the US has a large black population compared to the other nations in question.
     
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  20. uberfukken

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  21. Baya Rae 4900

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  22. uberfukken

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    obsolete mule

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    Trump is a very pro-jew candidate. Behind all the hype and xenophobic politics is a New York business mogul. He hasn't shied away from it either.
     
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  23. Baya Rae 4900

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    Lawlman

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    Yeah, I know. His wife is also a Jew, as far as I know. But there might be hope. Jews are unequivocally in support of the colonisation of the USA by Latinos and that's one of his main grievances.
     
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  24. uberfukken

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    Ironically the only candidate who has ever been critical of Israel, Bernie Sanders, is a jew.
     
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  25. uberfukken

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  26. Arcticphoenix95

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    Secretary of Fast Food and Sexual Assault

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    With every fallen peon Our Holy Emperor grows stronger.
    [​IMG]
     
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  27. uberfukken

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    obsolete mule

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    Trump needs to step it up. He did really poorly in the last debate (his arguments with Jeb were cringe) and he was outshined by that corporate failure hack Carli Fiorinna. Now that he's signed that "no independent run" treaty, mainstream media has been in full attack mode discrediting him at every turn. He's already dropped about 8 points in the polls, Carson and Carli are right behind him.
     
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  28. aggressiveboob

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    lightly salted

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    Donald Trump/Ted Nugent 2016
     
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  29. Fraud Based Economy

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    Disinherited Nigerian Prince

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    Remember when Hillary Clinton deleted those e-mails on her server? Well, it looks like the FBI recovered them. Buckle up, motherfuckers.

    :popcorn:

    Hillary Clinton: You've got jail!
     
    #119 Fraud Based Economy, Sep 22, 2015
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  30. Rodion

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    Sanders or Paul are my preference because they directly oppose private prison, decriminalization of :baked:, least shady lobby sponsoring, and i believe their fiscal matters could be solved by taxing corporations to Eisenhower levels.

    Really prefer Sanders,,If Clinton wins nomination i will vote only for Paul or write in for Vermin if any other republican wins. :relaxed:
     
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