Military/War/Etc.

Discussion in 'Religion & Politics' started by Baya Rae 4900, Feb 5, 2012.

  1. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    Training and experience morphs your instincts which is innate which mostly physical. In other words nothing in that post actually refutes what I wrote. In terms of tactical superiority, thought is a burden. Thinking means that you're hesitating which can mean the difference between being alive and being wounded or dead. That's what I mean by instinct. Your training and your combat experience morphs you so you don't have to think. You know what to do without thinking. Your fancy use of terminology that was created by your masters to keep you placid aside, you already know this. Specialisations aren't determined by mental prowess, either. You do something enough times over a long period and you'll be considered a genius at it. Of course, you're still not a genius because people think you're a genius. The only geniuses are polymaths and, frankly, I can't think of a single military polymath. If such a creature existed I'm sure they'd be doing something much more productive than wasting their efforts for the destructive, wasteful, bureaucratic behemoth (a bit redundant there) we call the military.

    Also, how long were you in the airborne?
     
  2. TheBrickBalls

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    Girlvinyl

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    Are you thinking of joining the Australian military The Member Formerly Known As Baya? You seem rather interested in the whole thing. Perhaps you should go make an appointment at a recruiter instead of playing armchair general at EDF.
     
  3. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    Fuck no. I know enough about it to know that I never want to be part of it. If I am able, I wish to join a citizens' militia of some kind. But only if anything I care about is under attack. A well maintained and well trained militia is enough. An air force and navy is useless due to American naval and air superiority. (Whether you're an American ally or enemy is irrelevant.) A mechanized army is useless for the same reasons.

    Think of the military as something that's brittle and breaks easily under pressure. Think of a militia as something flexible, able to take a lot of pressure and something that never really breaks. Take America's or Australia's military, for instance. How many of those soldiers would remain soldiers if they weren't going to receive their salaries? All their conditioned chanting aside, they're all mercenaries. What would these individuals do outside their home territory if their command breaks down?

    Few, if any, nations need a military these days. They're for show. They're there to provide an excuse to pillage the collective wealth of society. They're bureaucrats. Nothing more. The idea that any soldiers are receiving salaries, or retirement benefits, regardless of what rank they are, sickens me. But at this point I'm ranting.
     
  4. TheBrickBalls

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    Girlvinyl

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    Society builds a military so they will at least be protected from being forcefully pillaged in some way by an outside force. Right now the focus is shifting to Asia rather than the middle east as China and India get wealthier and build up threatening militaries that could disrupt our many interests in the area.

    Aside from that, some of the most valuable workers come out of the military. Do you have any idea how much a navy nuke with six years of experience is worth once he gets out? If the military produces people with valuable service sector skill sets, then how is the military for show?
     
  5. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    No, a society builds a militia whereas a government builds a military.

    India and China aren't disrupting America's might with their militaries but through trade. China's and India's militaries are laughably quaint when compared to America's yet America is losing power. Military might doesn't produce power or gain respect.

    Once he gets out is the key phrase there. While he's part of the military he's not producing anything. Worse, he's helping destroy and consume resources. There's more productive ways the government can train people, you know. One that isn't as costly or pointless.
     
  6. Solution

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    Everyone is boring

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    No specialty in the army is wholly tactical or technical but variances of the both, hence placement. The skill sets of an Army Prime Power Engineer (21P) requires, a higher degree of technical intelligence (Electrical engineering bachelors at first then masters for career advancement) than an Infantrymen (11B), who must train constantly to maintain tactical instinct. Where as, Combat Engineers( 21B) and Explosive Ordnance Disposal (89D) require a median of these two aspects at a high level to be efficient. Then there are specialists that require median aspects at a low level, i.e.Water specialist (92W), Shower/Laundry and Clothing Repair Specialist(92S). Each branch of the military has, base line standards for both tech ( ASVAB, mos qualification courses and exams, ect) and tact,( Weapons Qualification and Physical Readiness Test) that are requirements for service and act as measuring sticks for placement.

    Lol, cute.


    They are, in-part, decided based on mental prowess or in some cases the lack there of. Alot of MOSs/AFSCs require higher test scores in one area or another.An "out of the school house" Aviation Operations Specialist (15P) is required to make very technical repairs and calibrations to keep helicopters in flight, not something I would have Dr.Music do no matter how long she was trained.

    While I find this statement out of place in the conversation ( I do not believe I alluded to a prevalence of "genius" in the military, if I did it was unintended),
    I do agree the term "Genius" is a narrow sighted and over used descriptor of human innate ability vs. acquired skill.[/quote]

    11 years so far.

    Not, many. Our federal armed forces and state militias are linked. I do have great respect for the National Guard, most of whom soldier hard for a lot less.[/quote]

    Alot are just that, they serve for the pay check and/or the college money. They tend to only last the first- second enlistment. There are some younger troops that still join with patriotic intentions, they usually become senor NCOs. Commissioned Officers are worst the mercs, they are bureaucrats.

    If a command command at the unit level, they would transfer to another unit, however if whole military collapsed, idk.

    The need for military is other nations military, The concept, since its conception, has been and always will be mutually assured retardation, but disarming ones self in hope that others will fallow suite is naive. Necessary stupidity is necessary.

    I say the same about fast food workers, huh.
     
  7. Seku

    Seku
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    GTFO
     
  8. Solution

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    Everyone is boring

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    True. The greatest weapon created by man is no mechanical or explosive but economy. Look at the juxtaposition of post WW2 Japan and Cuba and the effect of foreign economy on the both.


    There are exceptions to this,i.e., Core of Army Engineers.
     
  9. Dr. Rice

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    Girlvinyl

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    Neo-Realism all up in this BITCH!!!
     
  10. Atomic_Joe

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    Joevahkiin

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    All the worlds military are for ONE thing, and you can argue all the want, but once you think about it, IT'S TRUE.

    MILITARISM AND WAR IS ALL JUST A BIG DICK WAVING CONTEST. George Carlin said that. And he was fucking right.
     
  11. Dr. Rice

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    Girlvinyl

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    Except Space Fascism when we eventually have to fight Aliens or Reapers or whatever.
     
  12. DDshoeshowz

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    Dramacrat

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    Second'd
     
  13. Atomic_Joe

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    Joevahkiin

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    LASER DICK WAVING.

    Doesn't that sound awesome?
     
  14. TheDukeOfCrowns

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    Depends if it's star trek or star wars
     
  15. Solution

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    Everyone is boring

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    True
    AWESOME!
    YES!
    Good point.
     
  16. Dr. Rice

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    Girlvinyl

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    It will be more like Warhammer
     
  17. Solution

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    Everyone is boring

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    Warhammer-second-edition-cover.
    or
    Rogue_trader_cover.
    ?
     
  18. Seku

    Seku
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    The one on top looks totally lame.
     
  19. Dr. Rice

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    Girlvinyl

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    Like this

     
  20. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    Brass tacks is that those really aren't soldiers. They're auxiliary. They're not trained to take part in conflict. Unless they have dual roles like engineers/sappers. I should've been more specific.

    A polymath soldier would be one that is an expert (or, rather, considered a genius) in all combat roles, with all types of weapons and explosives, in all types of combat situations, etc.

    So you joined 2001/2002? Never mind, then.

    I'm not talking about government sanctioned/subsidised militias. I'm talking about genuine/private militias. Those declared government militias, especially the National Guard of the US, are in fact de facto Reserves.

    If the government wants to help the militia along by subsidising weapons to citizens (or selling it to them outright) then that's fine. But a government rarely wants to reduce its own power and that's exactly what private militias do.

    To be fair, comparing America's military to mercenaries is wrong because mercenaries don't have air support or artillery so they actually have to be able to hold their own in a prolonged fire-fight. Which is probably why members of America's military gets paid a third or less than mercenaries.

    Militia's don't have this problem. The head is cut off, they simply elect a new leader (or group of leaders) or reorganize themselves entirely.

    Not disarming. Taking the weapons away from useless bureaucrats and giving them to citizens.

    The difference being that there is an actual demand for them outside the realm of organised slaughter.

    There are much more efficient ways to build infrastructure.

    Except those who are fighting for the survival of their government. It's a dick measuring contest for those who have absolutely no chance of being violently overthrown by a foreign party, like the US.

    No, it won't. Logistics and that.
     
  21. Solution

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    You believe Rambo exists?
    Even our Special Ops work in task forces, a mix of different specialties, plug n' play to fit the situation.
    Soldiers of all MOSs receive basic combat training, and there are a few non-combat that see alot of combat,i.e., Vehicle Operators (88M), Petroleum Supply Specialist (92F), Ammunition Specialist (89B), Combat Medics (68W).
    Even within Combat Arms there is a wide range of different MOSs (Ranging from Infantrymen,11B- 11C to Artillerymen, 8 different MOSs to Aviators, to Tankers, 19K) and unit specific skill sets, ( Airborne, Airassault, Mountain, light, heavy, Mech).
    The US military is one of modularity and specialty.
    I am not sure where you came by the notion of "polymath soldier genius expert in all combat roles in all types of combat situation" but it does not exist and is frankly ridiculous.


    13 Feb 2001

    Untrue, you need to do some more home work.
    Mercs, thanks to Iraq and Congo, have become more than just well paid infantry. There are a few companies that are full on private armies, with there own combat medical, indirect fires, attack/assault aviation and Mech. Besides, even the companies hired by the state department in Afghanistan utilize our Blue Force Tracker to call for support.


    Who are you referring to here?
     
  22. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    Rambo was special forces and I'm pretty sure I was quite clear that I can't think of a single military polymath. (Actually, a commando is probably the closest thing to a military polymath in existence.) And I'll tell you why they can't exist. Because the body isn't nearly as adaptable as the mind and combat training is almost completely centred around improving the physical aspect and whatever mental aspect is improved exists to compliment the physical aspect. And, things like field surgery or technical skills, can be learnt through repetition. Despite your own prejudices, it's better to have somebody who's experienced but not trained than somebody who's trained but not experienced. Also, it takes years to train somebody, through experience, to be a decent anything. On site training is the most effective form of training.

    Where were you deployed in 2001?

    Oh, I know about that. Stormy said as much before. She also said that they abandoned such things. Probably because it's not cost effective. Unlike the US military, PMCs have to think strategically. But yeah, there are several highly specialized PMCs that basically serve as ad hoc special forces. They've existed long before 2001.

    Well recent examples that you might recognise include Iraq before 2003, current day Iran and the Taliban. But, really, it's all nations which aren't superpowers. Wars like WW2 are probably never going to happen again because, despite the rhetoric, total wars aren't good for anybody.
     
  23. Solution

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    Everyone is boring

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    Then why did you bring it up?

    I have already explained my stance on this, however for the sake of dialog I will again.
    Training and placement is geared toward the skills needed to complement the mission essential task sets of a broad range of occupational specialties, both Combat Arms and noncombat specific, and of different, modular and complementary unit structures with in the Brigade Combat Team organization, be it mental or physical. The notion, you set forth, that these attributes are mutually exclusive is ignorant and narrow sighted.
    You really should read FM 7-0 "train the force" to gain a better understanding of the total warrior concept.

    What is your point? Repetition, is an essential asset to both cognitive and muscle memory, be it science or sports.

    With in the context of our conversation, I have never worked with an untrained soldier.
    All soldiers receive basic training which gives them a foundation of common standards, military bearing and discipline. They then receive Advanced Individual Training (AIT), this is where the are trained in the general knowledge in there occupational specialty, this lasts, depending on the technicality of the MOS, 3 months to 2 years, with some AIT awarding college degrees (Prime power, EOD, Avionics). From here some will be offered, based on aptitude, Special/ Additional Skill Identifier courses, i.e., Airborne, Ranger Indoctrination Program(RIP).
    It's at this point they come to the regular army, here we train them on the intricacies of their specialties, advanced general soldier skills, and team leadership all in relation to the specific tasking and operations of the unit.
    We use a phasic (Crawl-walk-run) "Train as you fight" methodology with experienced Non-Commissioned Officers (NCO) providing "Lessons Learned" based critiquing and correction, utilizing Precombat Checks/ Inspection (PCC/PCI), on the spot guidence and After Action Reviews (AAR), over the entire scope of Tactics, Techniques and Procedures (TTP), we have developed through trial and error and during real-world operations to support our individual units Mission Essential Task Listing (METL). In the Calvary, Airborne and Ranger communities there is an added emphasis on proficiency in skill level performance "Two grades up and two grades down", this means that these troopers must not only know and be proficient at their job but also those two levels below them and two levels above them, i.e, a Specialist/Corporal must be able to readily and effectively function as a Private or a Staff Sargent.
    Before deployment we are required to utilize and demonstrate this training at the Joint Readiness Training Center (JRTC) or the National Training Center (NTC), where we engage multiple relistic combat scenarios designed test unit cohesion, proficiency and flexibility against a local Opposing Force (OPFOR) trained in current and utilizing real enemy (Insurgent, Taliban, ect) TTPS. This process is supervised by Observer/Controllers (OC) who grade every aspect of the exercise, a unit must obtain a satisfactory rating to be considered deplorable.
    Once at the unit, the process takes less then a year to create a team oriented objective driven and highly proficient soldier that is ready for combat.

    It is not "prejudice" but hard fact, proven in blood, that well trained soldiers guided combat experienced leaders , trump both "somebody who's experienced" and somebody who's trained but not experienced.

    Yes, Nov 2001.


    So, was your previous comment was intended to be a slight and not a factual statement pertaining to the conversation?
    The big ones have not abandoned complete force structure, if anything Iraq is reinforcing the notion.
     
  24. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    @Solution I just remembered that I don't give a shit about anything we're discussing right now.

    Please give your opinion on this.
     
  25. CallMeMaggot

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    Girlvinyl

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    It's not the RPG that's the problem

    Yes, it is. Ur +3 Flail of Fail isn't enough to harm S'lution, the troll Overlord
     
  26. Solution

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    It depends on who is behind the RPG-7 and the warhead used. The vast majority of insurgents suck at weapon systems in general and ether catch a few rounds before they get a shot off or just miss. The antitank variant is absolutely brutal when it makes contact with non-reactive armored vehicles as it work like an explosively formed penetrater (EFP) at impact.
    The ANA on the Iran border are the sickest I have seen with this weapon system. They are actually proficient at skipping rounds from the ground into the under bellies of vehicular, it is something to see. I'll ask around perhaps one of my guys have a video of them working the RPG.
    There are far better (more accurate, effective and less dud producing) shoulder fire rocket systems i.e. the AT4, SMAW-D, Javelin, SRAW, APILAS. However, when price maters nothing provides a better bang-buck ratio the the RPG.

    Sorry for the wait on the reply, I stoped reading after this,
     
  27. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    Except for the comment about the rounds, I agree entirely. :D

    In your professional opinion, would it have been better had the US military used captured/confiscated small arms? The Spetnaz in Afghanistan did that to great efficiency and seeing as how the US literally had hundreds of thousands of captured/confiscated small arms under its control (a great chunk which kept going "missing") in both Afghanistan and Iraq it seems stupid to me to have it all in storage or to hand it out to people who've only stopped shooting at you because you're bribing them.

    So you can't say how effective it would be if it was used as one uses an assault rifle?
     
  28. Solution

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    As far as small arms rounds go the shit in Iraq and especially Afgan is completely miss stored dudie crap and the majority of it gets blown up by EOD when it gets found or given over to the ANA.


    Are you asking about the RPG?
     
  29. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    Yes.
     
  30. Solution

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    Not effective at all really, the rounds are subsonic so the aim is more of a lob which is no good for moving fire this also causes wind to be a greater variant to accuracy at a distance and the slower rate of fire prevents its usefulness at cover fire. A assault rifle, however, can not one hit kill every one in a vehicle or blow up dick heads hiding behind cover. They are just different tools.