Justine

Discussion in 'Religion & Politics' started by BoggiDWurms, Sep 28, 2012.

  1. BoggiDWurms

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    Been through 2/3rds of Marquis de Sade's Justine. The plot is really repetitive.

    TL;DR Justine
    1) 16 year old girl Justine ends up at depraved libertine's BDSM dungeon (libertine is usually an aristocrat or a priest who pretends to be a good wholesome person)
    2) Depraved libertine starts violating her.
    3) Justine begs to stahp but depraved libertine just gets hornier.
    4) Depraved libertine raeps Justine.
    5) Justine tries to use philosophy to talk depraved libertine out of being a sick fuck. Depraved libertine than pwns her with ungodly wisdom.
    6) Justine finds a way to escape depraved libertine's BDSM dungeon.
    7) Repeat loop from the top ad nauseum.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Many of my notes and interpretations from reading.

    Nietzschian Sade TL;DR
    Libertinage, death, destruction, nihilism are the ugly truth but people need to cover that up with things like religion, morality, higher culture, meaning to life to keep on going.

    Feminazi Sade TL;DR
    Teaching women to be pure, submissive, and pious doesn't actually make women into better people. It either makes them stupid and vulnerable or it teaches them to be good liars and cheat the system. It's all bullshit greedy old men (a la the ring wing) make up to control naive young women.

    "Christian" Sade TL;DR
    Libertinage is not really my philosophy (not in full anyway) but a way of drawing the bottom line of humanity. It is invaluable to know your Enemy, your worst self. Nevertheless, there is no obvious place to draw the line from my far left beliefs to going too far, if a line can be drawn at all. Too bad for you, stupid reader.

    Libertine Sade TL;DR
    God is stupid and not real. Jeezus was a Jewish bastard child con man who tricked people into believing his bullshit. All morality is cultural and relative therefore all morality is dumb. Sexual morality is really dumb and it's just something prudes and fuglies do to try to ruin the fun for everyone else. Many things people think are wrong (stealing, pedastry, sodomy, raep, murder, being an asshole, calmuty) is really OK.

    Pro-War Sade TL;DR
    War, violence, and struggle are good because it pressures people to compete, prove themselves, and strive for excellence. It also gives people a positive motivation to live and work together to reach a goal as opposed to peace which gives only the fear of reprisal from society.

    What do you guys think of Sade/Justine?
     
  2. BoggiDWurms

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    If this is the wrong place to post this thread I'm sorry. I'm newfag around these parts.
     
  3. Lord Raptor

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    1) I couldn't read a damn thing in the beginning because the font is turned to white for some reason
    2) While Sade was right in some aspects of his philosophy, he accidentally created a generation of boneheads that believe that being a libertine or an atheist is the right path to the truth. In reality, most of these people make his ideas look like a joke. Also, he often stereotyped "good" people as gullible and retarded in his novels, despite we know that "good" people weren't (and still aren't) THAT stupid.
    3) This probably fits in Music and Media. That's up to mods like @uberfukken to decide though.
     
  4. Dr. Rice

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    There are some literature scholars who argue that Sade was one of the best writers of all time. I wish I could read Justine ;-;
     
  5. uberfukken

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    pseudo intellectual ass fuckery in belongs in R&P
     
  6. BoggiDWurms

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    I hate it how people keep trying to make him into a Draco Malfoy/Marylyn Manson wanna be even though he wasn't.

    Schaeffer, his foremost biographer, puts it this way:

    "[The main point of de Sade's life and writing is not] as movie-makers and reviewers alike seem to think [...] to oppose censorship but to push the limits - sexual, spiritual, and political - as a means of feeling out the limits of his times and of his own mind. [Modern media] simplifies de Sade into a 'victim' and over-emphasises his potential as a focus for liberal-political meanings when, in fact, his life and perhaps his literary intentions - if you think of him as a satirist - can be seen as an object lesson, warning against the excesses of cultural relativism and nihilism; a very modern lesson, it would seem."

    I think Sade, like many great writers, is ambivalent and brings many different ideas to the table, letting readers think for themselves. In some works he is completely on the libertine's side, on others he becomes the satirist and derides libertinage as dangerous sophistries, in others he is somewhere in between.

    IRL Sade was a revolutionary politician and writer and was far left in his politics. Supposedly his sexual debaucheries were all slander against him because of his controversial writing, but I don't know for sure. It's entirely possible he was Devil's advocate and the Devil at the same.

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    I agree about the atheist 13 year old boys who live in Sade's shadow who know jack shit about Sade's work. But that happens with many controversial "dangerous" writers. The human caterpillar from Nietzsche -> Ayn Rand -> LeVey -> Boyd Rice is a perfect example. Another human caterpillar is Nietzsche -> Marylyn Manson -> TheAmazingAtheist -> 300,000+ drone subscribers.

    I don't think "good" people are all morons either. It's just that from every walk of life, from every school of thought, - whether it is atheism, feminism, anarchism, Christianity (and they can all overlap in one person) - there are smart people who are aware of the complexities of the issues and idiots who just tote the ideology, heroes who fight hard for their causes and myopic assholes who only want a piece of the pie for their own advantage. Mostly, people are idiots and assholes.

    If by that you mean old media lol. Gotta' love old media.

    I know my post is HUGE is Sade is fascinating and my IRL social life is as barren as my senile grandmother. :(
     
  7. BoggiDWurms

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    Well his work is pretty fascinating, a lot like ED in that repulsive how-bad-can-it-be kind of way.
     
  8. Aroukar

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    1. Take this link
    http://www.sade-ecrivain.com/justine/justine.html
    2. Put it here
    http://translate.google.com/#
    3. Or just follow this one.
    http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http://www.sade-ecrivain.com/justine/justine.html&act=url

    Read it myself...Fucking libertine assholes.
     
  9. BoggiDWurms

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  10. Aroukar

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    Ok?
     
  11. Dr. Rice

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  12. Rock

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    k
     
  13. Aroukar

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  14. Lord Raptor

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    Just a small note - there are two versions of Justine.

    The original text was much shorter and contained less debauchery. Sade then made a new version years later expanding some parts and changing others.
     
  15. BoggiDWurms

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    Pretty much. Decades after he wrote it mass murderer Napoleon got his fee-fees hurt because it had porno. So it came back and bit Sade in the ass. The bastard deserved it though.
     
  16. BoggiDWurms

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    Speaking of which, why is sex so bad but violence is a-OK? If Hollywood had the amount of sex equal to the amount of violence almost every movie would be hardcore porn.
     
  17. Dr. Rice

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  18. xXtryingtoohardXx

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    This country was founded by puritans. That explains the sex, but not the violence-militarism? Our own revolutionary past?
    Apparently it's the opposite in Europe-sex is tolerated, but violence is censored.
     
  19. Lord Raptor

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    Don't puritans beat out people when they are 'unholy'?
     
  20. GSTalbert1

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    Puritans were a crazy we can't even relate to.
    Our best records are the courts and man were they frisky.
    You had people cheating on their spouses in their marital beds while people walking by would pop their head in and moralfag at them, they just kept at it.
     
  21. Dr. Rice

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    Also incest that was taboo even in rural communities.
     
  22. BoggiDWurms

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    Hence Americunts today, especially in shitcoms. It's funny how ideas and cultural memes evolve through time.
     
  23. GSTalbert1

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    As interesting as such things as alchemy, teleology, and overeager applications of poorly understood evolutionary theory to the humanitities such as sUch as social Darwinism and memeology.
    Welcome to edf2!
     
  24. Dr. Rice

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    Since I got you so interested in Fascism because of my recommendation, I recommend you read/purchase this book http://www.amazon.com/Aurora-Consurgens-Attributed-Conjunctionis-Psychology/dp/0919123902. I look at alchemy from a religions perspective despite this largely secular perspective of Jung and friends. I have faith in the theological implications, but I accept double think. Because even if the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_and_animus are proven to exist as Jung defined, this will be the greatest evolutionary leap humanity will make and it will happen merely in a span of a few generations.
     
  25. BoggiDWurms

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    I don't mean literally evolve or speak in terms of evolutionary theory or clumsily applying science to the humanities. I say "evolve" loosely, like how ideas of the past are subconsciously passed down and pop up in little interesting ways today.
     
  26. GSTalbert1

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    Well no argument there.
    I assume your well read and I took your view to be dawkian, I take the Kuhnian side.
     
  27. BoggiDWurms

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    Kuhnian? I'm not the biggest fan of Dawkins. He's like thunderf00t. He knows his science but he fucks up everywhere else.
     
  28. GSTalbert1

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    Thomas Kuhn he's a hoot.
    Dawkins set out to write on a topic that he vocally bragged about knowing nothing, having read nothing, on the subject of which he was writing. Bragging about ignorance is wearing foolishness as a badge of honor.
     
  29. BoggiDWurms

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    Thoman Kuhn huh? Interesting. I really like these "postmodernist" philosophers who keep showing the unreality of the world we live in, like Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Spengler.

    Sade approaches this territory too, I think.
     
  30. GSTalbert1

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    My opinions of politics stems from my own opinions on the state. I specifically believe that an organic approach is the correct one. There is speculation that humans combine the autonomous and anonymous individual. Human beings have the capacity to apply swarm intelligence as a group of autonomous individuals, greatly exponentiating the intellectual yield we collectively produce. This is the true source of scientific progress, when a great deal of information is freely and actively shared the results are undeniable. To utilize and direct this one must directly give as much control over to individual COMMUNITIES and abolish intellectual property thus unleashing the floodgates of human potential. To accomplish this one must create voluntary rituals, ie socio-cultural behavoirs, that are independent of, by being neutral in respects to, the Law. This is in essence an organic approach that embodies a strain of thought attributable to fascists.