Gun control in America.

Discussion in 'Religion & Politics' started by Baya Rae 4900, Jun 27, 2014.

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  1. Solution

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    Everyone is boring

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    If I offered you a round trip plane ticket and room and board, would you consider a visit?
     
  2. ilovejesus69

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    Can your Australia do this?
     
  3. n1bblir

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    Apparently being rich automatically makes you corrupt in Aussie-land. Might explain why they even managed to elect someone as retarded as Ruggkipps but anyway.

    Unfortunately the gun crazies in the US are right in one effect that the forefathers supported gun rights because they didn't think government should have all the power in their hands and if something did happen and they turned into England- it would enable citizens to rise up and fight the government.

    That pretty much is the meaning behind that amendment- the forefathers also stated that once a government's laws and rules were no longer supported by the people it must be null and void then reconstructed- pretty much meaning the only way to get through it would be some kind of civil war. Now did all of them support it? I don't know most of them did though.

    But most of them would probably call those bringing their guns into family restaurants moronic faggots right to their face because they rolled like that. Maybe not George Washington as much though.. Ben Franklin would!
     
  4. Baya Rae 4900

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    The US federal government spends 0.6 trillion (conservative estimates) on the military alone every year. It spends at least another 0.8 trillion on subsidised healthcare. Both these sectors are ridiculously corrupt by any standard, chief among them nepotism. I could go on but...

    Frankly, I don't believe I have to explain this. Does anyone here actually believe that the US government isn't in bed with private interests? Or that legislators aren't in the pockets of private interests? Please be honest, I need to know who among you I can write off as being too retarded to have a meaningful conversation with. I think you guys are fucking with me. You guys are just being contradictory because you don't want to concede any ground to me in the fictional war in your heads. I think you all know how corrupt your government is. Please stop, all that's happening is that guys look stupid beyond measure. Of all the things you guys have picked to be contradictory about, you guys pick the most indefensible.

    Competitors and society in general.

    Government unions/cartels and private cartels/citizens that take advantage of government regulations/taxes/subsidies.
     
  5. uberfukken

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    As far as I know gun control only works if it's done on a federal level, otherwise people just cross state lines to pick up their ammo. Chicago had an all-out gun ban for decades (overruled by the supreme court about 2-3 years ago) and it didn't really reduce the gun violence, just made the weapons a lot more expensive to buy. You could still get a Ruger 22 on the streets but it would cost about a grand and probably had a murder on it.

    Nasty side effect of that is the only people with guns were the thugs and the cops, so every ordinary working class guy was basically a sitting duck and the criminals knew this. No law abiding citizen wanted to risk a gun charge, there was a 2 year minimum just for possession. Since the supreme court overturned the gun ban, there's been less muggings and robberies, simply because the thugs don't know who is liable to fire back at them. Not even the lowest of crackheads wants to get their face blown off by a 60 year old man.

    Gun bans simply won't happen in the US no matter how much the left wing jabbers about it because it's engraved in our constitution. "The right to bear arms" - that's very clear and can't be spin-doctored. Do I agree with it? Yes and no. Civilians do not need assault rifles, but denying them the ability to defend themselves when all the bad-guys already have guns might as well be a human right's violation.
     
  6. spacemadness

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    What kills me is that people don't realize the potential consequences of limiting things that are guaranteed rights under the constitution in a way that bypasses actually getting 2/3 of the states to decide to change the thing. They say "Well obviously we can't just take the guns away. That would be too much work and work is haaaard. So instead let's just say you cant have the following types of guns or the following types of ammunition." That seems reasonable and the generation gets used to it. Next generation they restrict it just a little more and so on and so forth. Whether you're pro gun control or not the idea of the government having the power to pass legislation to limit your guaranteed rights like this should at the very least mildly concern you.

    As an aside I would say that the people who wrote the constitution had a pretty good reason for putting the bit in there about the right to bear arms and seeing it as a "doomsday measure" in case the people had to revolt against the government. One of the huge factors that sparked the Revolutionary War was the Crown's attempt to limit the colonists ability to resist with firearms (confiscating gunpowder etc), so they weren't exactly being unreasonable when considering that this could happen again in the future.
     
  7. Twaek

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    Hey, you learned numbers. Good job!
    Pretending that's true, it would just mean those sectors are corrupt, not the governments that buy from them.
    If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.
     
  8. Solution

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    We need open kill zones. Carry or die, no police intervention, decriminalized murder havens.

    Big red letters on a white back ground
    "Every Mudda Fuckka In This Bitch Gotz Steel, fo real *Clack Clack* Baby Nigga"
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  9. 1H4T3NUMB3R5

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    Bayas always been jelly of America. Its because his countries only noticeable claim to fame died to a stingray
     
  10. uberfukken

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    The idea that the people will ever revolt against the US government is a pipe dream of a few wackjobs in Montana who would rather harvest firewood than get an internet connection, and despite all this NSA spy-state shit going on the US military won't be kicking down anyone's door for being a political dissident. We're too big for that now, too many people watching. Someone has to draw the line, this isn't the 17th century where "arms" is limited to powder kegs and muskets. Otherwise, what's going to stop someone from building an anti-aircraft turret on their roof.

    There is a very clear distinction between military and civilian in the 21st century and laws should reflect that. I'm more concerned about some psychopath stockpiling explosives than I am being rooted out by our own government.
     
  11. ilovejesus69

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    Can your Australia do this?
     
  12. Arcticphoenix95

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    Yes, but they can't handle the pain like a freedom loving 'murican can.
     
  13. Baya Rae 4900

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    The fact that the citizens are armed keeps the government on its toes. Similar to the "fleet in being" doctrine.
     
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  14. uberfukken

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    No, it really doesn't, because it's 2014. What are they afraid of, a group of pissed of activists storming Congress? Maybe in the movies. That's just not reality.
     
  15. Baya Rae 4900

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    Do you know what the fleet in being doctrine is?
     
  16. uberfukken

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    No and I don't care.
     
  17. badbones777

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    I'm not sure that it does - if it did then there are plenty of things over the past 40 years at least that wouldn't have happened - people in the west are -more or less- too content and apathetic to consider that sort of thing any more.

    I don't agree with the concept of gun ownership being any sort of deterrent to crime or murder in particular any more than capital punishment is - if it worked there would be a lot less of it. I certainly can't see it dissuading a crack addict - if he's decided to try and roll you he's going to go for it whether he thinks yo are armed or not.
     
  18. uberfukken

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  19. badbones777

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    From within the self same article: (which incidentally spells Superintendent wrong)
    But Chicago Police Superintendant Garry McCarthy says the opposite is what’s reducing crime: police have recovered 1,300 illegal guns during the first three months of 2014.
    Mr. McCarthy also attributed the drop in violence to better police training and community programs to keep kids off the street. Both the city’s top cop and its mayor, former Obama Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, have said they oppose the concealed carry laws.

    Pink text emphasis mine.

    I won't doubt that for the odd person it might make a difference or induce someone to think twice about a purely opportunistic crime, but Crime itself as old as the species and it's not going anywhere and frankly if things like being hung, drawn and quartered haven't proven enough of a deterrent down the years then it's clear that any sort of punishment = deterrent notion is inherent bullshit - If people wish to delude themselves that "leveling the playing field" by having everyone armed makes society safer and conveniently ignore millennia of historical evidence to the contrary then good luck with that but I would suggest that the fact the murder and crime rate is disproportionately high in the US (given it's huge population and level of development) that the answer to reducing crime might lie elsewhere.
     
  20. uberfukken

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    They're full of shit and licking their wounds. "The city's top cop" is a crybaby politician and the only reason Rahm succeeded Daley is because he's in bed with Obama. They're both staunch Democrats and have been very vocal about their opposition to concealed carry while the supreme court shot them down. Everyone in the city hates Rahm and there's no way he's getting re-elected, so his opinion is about as meaningful as a blog post.

    Crime rate is disproportionately high in the US? Historical evidence shows crime rate goes down when weapons are illegal? You'll have to source both of those statements because I'm not buying. If you want to see high crime, visit Rio De Janeiro (which also happens to have some of the most rigid gun laws in the world).
     
  21. spacemadness

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    Agreed. It is extremely unlikely. I don't foresee the US military deciding that it's a good idea to turn on civilians especially considering the fact that the members of the military were once civilians, have friends and family who are civilians and would be attacking their own towns and being ordered to destroy their own infrastructure. In fact if the powers that be did decide one day to declare Obama Glorious Leader and attempt to turn the US into North Korea they probably wouldn't have much luck in doing so for the reasons I just listed. Still....in the incredibly unlikely event that this were to happen I can see where the wackjobs are coming from.......to an extent. I don't think it's reasonable to expect it though...or to prepare for this attack and encourage others to do so.
     
  22. Slavoj Jizzek

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    The millennia of history is also based on a time where brute strength was the primary asset of a brigand or violent criminal.

    An axe
    A sword
    A bow

    What do these three weapons before the advent of modern firearms have in common? They're increasingly useless in the hands of a woman, a wimp, or the elderly. If we magically erased firearms from all citizens in the US, niggers would still be killing and robbing. They'd just be doing it with knives, lead pipes, etc. With guns, a 250 pound "youth" can catch his death from a 67 year old retiree. If they both had nothing but clubs, the old guy loses every time.

    The reason common armament has not proven effective throughout history is because 5 healthy thieves with swords can risk fighting one healthy man with a sword without reasonable fear of injury or death. Five thugs with Hi Points vs. one old guy with a gun don't have the same odds of facing combat unscathed as they did in preceding times.
     
  23. Baya Rae 4900

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  24. badbones777

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    Given it's level of development and perceived social mobility/standard of living (in a very generalized sense) Crime IS disproportionately high in the US compared to what it might be expected to be - with basically no prospects or opportunities for a vast amount of it's very poor population, I think the admittedly terrifying level of crime in Rio is probably closer to what one would expect from that environment than in the US.The crime rate is obviously going to be higher wherever there are the most pronounced gap between rich and poor (which includes the US, and Russia in particular). While I cannot say I know how strict the gun control laws in Rio are, if they are, as you say, very strict, are you suggesting more guns would make the place better? I'm not sure


    "What do these three weapons before the advent of modern firearms have in common? They're increasingly useless in the hands of a woman, a wimp, or the elderly."

    I disagree - given the much larger proportion of agricultural workers in past eras (including forestry/woodcutting as large employers) not to mention the prevalence of of poaching and hunting and (in England from the C14th at least) mandatory weekly and holiday archery practice, I would say that the common man stood a pretty good chance of actually being fairly proficient with an axe or bow whether they were a "wimp" or not - probably better skilled with their tools/available weapons than the average citizen is with their handgun today at any rate.



    Obviously it's a contentious issue and the right to bear arms is never going to stop being a closely held cultural
    thing for Americans (and rightly so, it's a touchstone of national identity) but the two places I have felt the most scared and insecure in the world are New York and Moscow (former due to cab driver having handgun on dashboard and had up until that point never seen a gun in the flesh so to speak, and the latter due to the metro and streets crawling with armed soldiers, some of whom looked about 14) and I've been to the Yemen.

    It's interesting to see what makes one society/group of people feel safe and comfortable can have the opposite effect on others though.
     
  25. Slavoj Jizzek

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    Funny thing is, if America was filled with only Europeans and South/East Asians, it would have less crime than Belgium.

    Link to an unsavory site with even more documentation and details on the depth of the problem. Don't be scared by the salty language and subtitle.

    As for getting nervous around guns, it happens to people who haven't been desensitized to them and whose only experience with them comes from portrayal in film, tv and video games where they're always going off and killing people. A lot of people who have never been in the room with an actual dog before react similarly. I didn't grow up around guns, but I made a choice to become part of that world. Now my first thought when I see somebody printing or even open-carrying when I'm about my daily business is, "Good. Somebody else here is prepared in case of an emergency."
     
  26. Arcticphoenix95

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    Link's not working for me.
     
  27. Slavoj Jizzek

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  28. spacemadness

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