Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind

Discussion in 'News' started by MrGask, Feb 24, 2012.

  1. MrGask

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    Tl;dr Karim Nader thinks he has found a way to keep humans from recalling specific memories by blocking protein synthesis in the part of the brain that stores that memory.



    Five Pages
     
  2. zaiger

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  3. Immortal_Cake

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  4. CallMeMaggot

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    I'm gonna rant, beware

    Maybe @Dr. Rice or @Weezus Christ or @Massgrav might find it somewhat interesting too, I have already talk with them about similar issues

    In recent years, CISD has become exceedingly popular, used by the US Department of Defense, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the Israeli army, the United Nations, and the American Red Cross. Each year, more than 30,000 people are trained in the technique.

    And of course, total fail, as the article points out

    I have known from my own experiences that the best thing you can do to relieve psychological pain is not to think about the issue, and trying to do something funny/interesting instead

    They got it wrong, bolstered I think by the human drive for gossip, and for taking advantage of wounded subordinates

    Confession mechanism are used in almost all religions, but they are made more reasonably (when not abused, of course...), in peacefull ambients and when the confessing person has had time to somewhat process the issue

    Of course, manipulative priest can do the opposite, empowering the shame/culpability as a method of gain power upon his herd members

    The problem is, CISD rarely helps and recent studies show it often makes things worse

    Yep, that's it

    New research is showing that every time we recall an event, the structure of that memory in the brain is altered in light of the present moment, warped by our current feelings and knowledge.

    Ego (that thing we call "me", that thing that right now is typing, in my case) is process

    It's more software than hardware, although the later is obviously indispensable

    We actualize ourselves constantly, most of the times without realizing, which is pretty dangerous

    Any hardware capable of running our software would become "us", which lead to pretty fucked up sci-fi scenarios

    That dawned on my thinking about celular automatons, when I discovered that the simplest set of rules, states and scenarios can lead to amazingly complex behaviour.

    The classical example is Game of Life, where a couple ot states (on/off), set of rules (only four) and escenario (a grid) can sustain a Turing machine, and consequently, any kind of computable logical process.

    ANY. The implications are mind-boggling indeed

    The brain isn’t interested in having a perfect set of memories about the past. Instead, memory comes with a natural updating mechanism, which is how we make sure that the information taking up valuable space inside our head is still useful. That might make our memories less accurate, but it probably also makes them more relevant to the future.

    There, there.
    That's why it's so easy to manipulate memories.

    And that's why the almost only way of making a self-conscious auto-programming is by force of trauma

    Big changes in personality can be made almost only through traumatic experiences, when the bio-chemistry of the brain becomes so fucked up that it becomes malleable

    That's why the self-improvement seccion of the bookstore only serve to whip our asses. But nobody likes trauma, so they sell very well
     
  5. CallMeMaggot

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  6. CallMeMaggot

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    Over and over, the act of repeating the narrative seemed to corrupt its content. The scientists aren’t sure about this mechanism, and they have yet to analyze the data from the entire 10-year survey. But Phelps expects it to reveal that many details will be make-believe. What’s most troubling, of course, is that these people have no idea their memories have changed this much, she says

    Because of that, it's really worring that our legal system is based in eyewitness testimonies, often distant in time and staled
    Only fresh recollection have any value, pysical evidence is way more reliable

    But now that it's possible to manipulate most recorded evidence (the Photoshop Era), that's troublesome too

    Bottom line: we're fucked, lol

    In one 2010 clinical trial, subjects suffering from PTSD were given MDMA (street name: ecstasy) while undergoing talk therapy. Because the drug triggers a rush of positive emotion, the patients recalled their trauma without feeling overwhelmed. As a result, the remembered event was associated with the positive feelings triggered by the pill. According to the researchers, 83 percent of their patients showed a dramatic decrease in symptoms within two months. That makes ecstasy one of the most effective PTSD treatments ever devised.

    I loled when read that.
    I have been doing that for years, taking MDMA or shrooms and then thinking in problematic issues. Works like a charm.
    I'm glad that trick it's being slowly given official credit, it was about time

    This isn’t Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind-style mindwiping. In some ways it’s potentially even more effective and more precise. Because of the compartmentalization of memory in the brain the storage of different aspects of a memory in different areas the careful application of PKMzeta synthesis inhibitors and other chemicals that interfere with reconsolidation should allow scientists to selectively delete aspects of a memory.

    And then:

    Even more troubling, it’s easy to imagine a world where people don’t get to decide the fate of their own memories. "My worst nightmare is that some evil dictator gets ahold of this," Sacktor says. "There are all sorts of dystopian things one could do with these drugs."

    Bing able to selectively wipe memories gives an astonishing power over people, yep.

    But what they don't mention on the article is the corolary: through the application of enhancing PKMz synthesis chemicals, we can implant totally new memories

    If we administer to the "patient" some shit like that, and then make him watch or read some well done fictional recreation of any event, we can perhaps literally change the memories of it, or create a totally new one.
    That's not only brainwashing, but brainpainting

    That's truly frightening

    Those scenarios aside, the fact is we already tweak our memories—we just do it badly.

    Again, yep.
    Only by reading/watching just only one kind of politically biased sources, we reinforce time and time again a particular architecture of (perceived) reality

    Watching just Fox News, e.g, literally models reality in a way totally different that watching CNN, which explains the awesome differences about percetion of the same events

    That's way one of the best exercises to keep flexible mindsets is let oneself be exposed to as different as possible influences.

    Or arguing yourself against your own beliefs in the most hard way.
    E,g. I like to play opposite sides while disscussing an issue, doing so it's not just behaving like a smartass jerk, it's also about deprogramming yourself a bit

    Of course, those games can also lead to eschizophrenia, lol
     
  7. Massgrav

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    I'd love to say something smart here, but I'm so hung over I just want to die.

    Well said though.
     
  8. Weezus Christ

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    DUDE THAT GOES DOUBLE FOR ME I COULDNT ACTUALLY READ THIS.

    CAPSLOCK WHY ARE YOU ON
     
  9. Massgrav

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    What sorcery is this?!
     
  10. I_Cant

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    pretty much what I was thinking while reading this, except I don't use drugs to ease my memories. (I just forget things, seriously, I have almost no memory of any of the important moments in my life, it's kinda frightening how bad my memory is)

    I always loved debating because I could do this, and my mother seriously pisses me off because she can't seem to, she's pure liberal. it's better than pure conservative, but still annoying to be around someone so polarized.

    I've also witnessed people accidentally rewriting their own memories firsthand, like when my father found out that my best friend was gay. the way it actually went was as follows (confirmed by 3 witnesses):
    Code:
    my father found that he was rooming with his female cousin
    my father asked him if he had ever had "relations" with his female cousin (he winked and nudged a lot at this point)
    I said "actually he's gay"
    my father stared at him in disbelief for about 10 minutes asking the same questions over and over, mostly "WHAT?"
    whereas what he remembered was:
    Code:
    my father asked him how he was settling into his new apartment
    he told my father that he was gay
    my father stared in disbelief
    so that was only a minor change, most likely edited out of embarrassment (since he'd implied incest), we found out he'd remembered it wrong a few days later, and it was funny as hell looking at his expression when he was told he'd implied incest.

    of course, on other occasions he has attempted to intentionally erase embarrassing material (such as a dvd showing him doing pushups extremely badly) so it was just silly mostly.


    but yeah, organic memory is too easily manipulated, and digital memory can be edited as well.

    as for some force intentionally planting memories into people... that is a really disturbing possibility, but it's nothing new for people to try and rewrite the past.
     
  11. MrGask

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    Erasing/re-writing someone memory is certainly nothing new, but what scares me a bit it the apparent ease that this drug has doing it. Before it was a matter of systematic hypnosis, stimuli, and sensory deprivation. This thing makes it too easy.

    I wonder if they have a method to record your brain state before the drug is administered so as to reverse the procedure if needed?

    Anyway, a lot of the reason I posted this is too see what @PerpetuallyAroused thinks of it.
     
  12. Helix

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    I imagine that it's much harder to create a false memory than to destroy an existing one, using this method I mean. It's 2 A.M and I'm just skimming here, but I don't see how one could use these drugs to create brand new memories. Regardless, this is some pretty scary shit. I'd hate to imagine what some people would do with this once it's perfected.

    I wonder if erased memories are actually permanently gone. I guess if you got rid of an idea or memory, but left memories that gave you clues about the original idea, you could sort of piece it back together, unless it's literally impossible thanks to the fact that these drugs literally block the specific proteins from synthesizing entirely.
     
  13. PerpetuallyAroused

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    Won't work. Trust me, our understanding of the human brain sucks ass. They might try it, but they'll fuck it up royally for the first few times. Most attempts at manipulating things like this have resulted in the realization that 8 or 9 other things are acutally involved, like our first attempts at gene manipulation. The first attempt at producing insulin just had them putting insulin gene in bacteria, but it turns out there are about 3-4 other proteins involved in transforming the protein to its final product. If anything, much more subtle techniques are more effective. For example, the guy who wrote that article knows the general public is not educated and prone to fearfulness, so they wrote that article in order to generate more add clicks for the site they wrote it for. Seriously, if you are so worried about being brainwashed, don't make it so damn easy.
     
  14. Helix

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    PerpA, right on time to save the day break OP's balls.
     
  15. Weezus Christ

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    brain washing can only be done by dunking your head in holy water.

    get jesus.
     
  16. MrGask

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    Huh, I expected something more informative from our resident escientist.
     
  17. CallMeMaggot

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    Well, that's how science evolve, no problem with that.

    And we make a lot of things that we don't really understand how they work, like e.g. chips
     
  18. Weezus Christ

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  19. CallMeMaggot

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    Fuck, I was going to add inb4potato to my post, but then I forgot to do it, lol

    Were you manipulating my mind? eh? eh?
     
  20. PerpetuallyAroused

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    No trust me, actual selective memory deletion is a ways off. As I understand it our memories are pretty zany as it is, I doubt memories are even discrete quantities. Just talk to a cop who has ever tried to ask 10 people the details of something they saw go down. As it was explained to me, our memories aren't like video tape, its like we take down random collections of facts, and use that to reconstruct things. So its not like a hard disk, you just can't plain delete singular memories.

    This kind of stuff just plain comes from some people's need to feel like they are more in the loop, and that the big bad government is always out to get them. Grow up
     
  21. Morbidorable

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  22. Weezus Christ

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    hahah perpa actually uses common sense?
     
  23. I_Cant

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    I remember hearing a while back that every memory is stored in several different locations, (now I've actually slept and can remember shit) so even if you removed it from one area, there's backup copies elsewhere (although they may not be identical)
     
  24. PerpetuallyAroused

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    Yeah, its unlikely we will ever get it precisely. People want to believe the government is capable of controlling things from the shadows, but look at the government struggle to perform even the simplest tasks.
     
  25. I_Cant

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    the last thing I'm worried about is the government getting too much power, they're too inept to manage it.
    other groups I'm not so sure
     
  26. CallMeMaggot

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    I know, I know. Far as I can tell, memory works in kinda an holographic way.

    That's why I was/am quite skeptical about the matter too.

    But it happens that they (the researchers) were too. It was with amazement that thay have seen how that shit works, which is pretty surprising, even with rodents. Of course, we still have to see it applied to humans...

    Anyways, one of the key points of the study is precisely that memory don't work as a hard drive. It's more like a dynamic process.

    If you let me continue with the clumsy analogy, what they are doing seems more like modifiying the machine code that (re-)generate memories, instead of erasing any particular information

    Have you read the full article? Interesting, to say the least.
     
  27. I_Cant

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    yeah, that's right, because the brain has to re-process the memory WHILE that stuff is in the system for the memory to be removed.

    so I guess to manage that with a human they'd administer the drug and then tell the person to write about the experience, which would take forever.

    ...

    now, another question is whether or not short-term memories can be prevented from becoming long-term memories, I can see that as being much more useful to any particular agency that wanted to cover up shit, provided they got to the people who were there before they sleep or whatever.

    but are memories of the day stored in a manner which differs from memories from previous days? could one selectively remove these memories? we just don't know yet.
     
  28. Weezus Christ

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    generating new memories is easy.

    there was this pillhead girl that was always so intoxicated she would slur her speech and all that.

    well one day a giant turd showed up in the giant washbasin in the laundry room we used as a urinal.

    we told her she did it and kept up with it long enough she began to remember having done it.

    the funny thing is that i am the one that did it.

    she died later that year.

    and she died thinking she shit in my urinal.

    you know, the laughter helps ease the pain.
     
  29. I_Cant

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    yeah, I've seen that too, people will disbelieve their own memories in favor of someone else's as long as they're the only one who remembers it that way.
     
  30. Weezus Christ

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    you can get them if they believe, half believe or dont believe at all!

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