Efficiency under the red sun.

Discussion in 'Religion & Politics' started by Baya Rae 4900, Jul 24, 2011.

  1. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    How would one maintain a socialist nation? The accumulation of power is the easy part. But how would one keep the dissenters in line and the dissent down? And there is always a lot of dissent in socialist nations because, let's face it, people don't like being treated like expendable pieces of meat. If you can, use historical precedents as examples.
     
  2. Emily

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    This is capitalism.
     
  3. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    Being allowed to own things and people putting value in your life because they require your services is capitalism. Working long hours for the government, only for the government to give you meager rations back is socialism.
     
  4. Cthulhu

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    Have you ever lived in a socialist nation or do you know anyone who has?
     
  5. Cthulhu

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    You obviously have no idea what socialism is.
     
  6. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    I have, actually.

    I do, actually.
     
  7. Emily

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    I don't know in what kind of dream capitalist state you live in, but in reality, people are slaves of the wages working for companies, and not their selves or their ideals.
     
  8. Cthulhu

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    Well you should know then that the problem with socialism has never been a matter of "Working long hours for the government, only for the government to give you meager rations back".
     
  9. Emily

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    And working long hours for wal-mart is not bad?
     
  10. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    Having money gives them control. To call it wage slavery is to take a piss on actual slavery. Slaves had no control over their lives since they weren't paid. And corporations are just mini-governments. You basically want to create a massive corporation that we're all slaves to. And you don't even know it. Or aren't honest with yourself. Regardless, this isn't the topic at hand.

    You're right. It's going into a supermarket and finding only empty shelves because socialists don't understand basic economics.

    You serious? Working long hours under (usually) atrocious conditions for food stamps is the same as working at Wal-Mart for money? On top of that, even if you were paid in a socialist nation you can't use the money because it's worthless. You have to resort to the black market. Socialism is about the government monopolizing power. That's it. It's about the biggest and most organized gang consolidating their power and wiping out all competition.
     
  11. Emily

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    I'm not a communist pur sang, I don't think everyone should earn the same, and I don't think the state should take total control.
     
  12. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    Then you're not a socialist. Look up "state capitalism."
     
  13. Emily

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    BANNED LOL

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  14. Cthulhu

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    First tell me in which socialist country or former socialist country have you lived.
    Also socialist economics were pretty solid.Much more solid than the "free market" nowadays.
    In socialism almost everyone got the same wage.So there were no people significantly richer than others.Everyone could get by without any problems.I who am from a former socialist country have been told this by my parents and grandparents numerous of times(note however that every single one of them hated the regime but for other reasons).Everyone could get a job and that job could let him afford anything available.Indeed there were a lot less things available in socialist countries than say in America,but nearly everything was affordable.People were actually pretty lazy those days compared to today.
     
  15. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    You're nothing but a poser, Emily. From an economic point of view you're nothing but a goddamn state capitalist. If you met real socialists you'd piss your pants.

    Socialism was so successful that a total of three or four nations practice it now.
     
  16. molb*

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    Have you ever actually read Von Mises? The Soviet Union lasted as long as it did because of Stalin, and his merely charlatan understanding of Marxism.
     
  17. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    I think he understood socialism, also known as proletarian dictatorship, quite well.
     
  18. molb*

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    I really haven't studied enough to get into an academic debate; but Von Mises felt that his lack of indoctrination (read: not "real" communism) and reliance on his own common sense delayed the inevitable collapse.
     
  19. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    Actually it was Stalin's iron fist that kept everybody in line. Maybe you can call that common sense, I don't know. The world works differently when you're dealing with totalitarian ideologies like socialism. Just so you know, communism is basically anarcho-syndicalism and socialism is what's meant to precede it. In more honest times we would've called it proletarian dictatorship. Indeed, that's what Lenin called it. Speaking of Lenin, he waned in later years, trying to introduce the "New Economic Policy" which was just watered down state capitalism. He knew that socialism was a bad idea and not economically feasible. Stalin was an ideologue, however, and a workaholic to boot. He got socialism running and got rid of the million different squabbles that were tearing the various Marxist parties in the USSR apart. Stalin was probably the biggest prominent Marxist in the party. From our point of view he was heavy handed but most if not all the socialists he killed wouldn't have spared his life (or the lives of his family) had their positions been reversed.
     
  20. molb*

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    Yeah I really only read that one guy's opinion. But your semi-defense of Stalinism is basically his refutation of Trotskyism lol. Socialist terminology is kinda weird. I think Soc and Com were synonymous until some parties needed to nominate their division. I'm not sure if I believe you on the anarcho-syndicalism part. It seems most experts would disagree and I'm too drunk to fundamentally understand a mainstream opinion, let alone a divergent.
     
  21. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    I'm not defending Stalin. I'm simply pointing out an observation centered around facts. In any case if you read anybody's description of what a communist society would be like, the description would fit anybody's description of what a anarcho-syndicalist society would be like. I think the main difference is that anarcho-syndicalist skip the socialist part of Marxism and go straight for the utopia.
     
  22. Ahseyo

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    Read moar about socialism, come back later .
     
  23. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    All I can do at this point is reread what I've already read.
     
  24. Ahseyo

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    Dramacrat

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    Sractch all that, I read through the thread. Sometimes I post before reading.
     
  25. Beefcake

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    Socialism is not the same thing as Communism.
     
  26. molb*

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    I said "semi-defense".

     
  27. Seku

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    Anarcho-syndicalism precedes communism.
    In communism, there is no proletariat because class divisions do not exist.
     
  28. Negi Springfield

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    I would like to say that the first and best Empire of the Sun was Mexico, otherwise known as the Navel of the Moon.

    That being said, communism or socialism doesn't work in many ways, which is not to say that any government works outside of theory. Most of the systems work in theory as they are meant to (democracy being the rule by the people) and fail due to corrupting factors (freemasonry, good old boy networks etc) which are the reason for the downfalls of the system in place.
     
  29. Seku

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    The world is broken. Omnicide is the only answer.
     
  30. Baya Rae 4900

    Baya Rae 4900
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    Lawlman

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    I already pointed that out but thanks.

    Semantics.

    Any government which goes against the market is just asking to get fucked.